K is for Kinktok and Kinkstagram with Dr Lori Beth Bisbey and Lucinda Rose (Primal Empress)
Dr Lori Beth Bisbey: Today the letter is K and K is for kinktok and other stuff around kink and BDSM and social media. Joining me today is Lucinda Rose, also known as Primal Empress. She is a multifaceted individual. Her day job in itself is interesting as a parenting coach and Placenta Encapsulation therapist. She’s happy to combine her training as nanny specializing in babies and children with special needs with her background in psychology. She has a master’s degree in Applied Psychology and worked in the NHS for years. She also combines her love of science and holistic natural approaches to make placenta remedies for new mothers. Then she found tiktok and Primal Empress was born. She’s now just as well known for her priest kink as she is for anything else she’s ever achieved, ironically Lucinda really disliked social media. But it seems social media likes her. Lucinda has been part of the BDSM lifestyle since she was 18 and is passionate about educating. So in lockdown trained as a sex and relationships educator, finding the balance of how to do this appropriately on the internet, which is not monitored adequately is a tricky tightrope to walk. And so Primal Empress focuses on safety, consent, identity and empowerment while sprinkling as much kink in as she can. Welcome to the show.
Lucinda Rose: Yeah, there’s a lot of people who weaponize their knowledge and don’t necessarily know how to read research adequately and dissect it appropriately. I mean, there’s a lot to be said for people speaking about their lived experience. Absolutely. But there’s a difference between educating and just talking.
Dr Lori Beth Bisbey: You know, because you’ve seen me speak, but I talk from my educational background. So I’ll talk about research and academics. I talk about clinical practice because I’ve worked with tons of people. I’ve been working with people on these issues for 35 years. And then I have lived experience. So I’ve got all those bits. And I’m actually also a qualified educator. My first degree was in special education. So I’ve actually also I know how to teach, which is also helpful. But I’m so I’m pulling from all those pieces. And I’m very clear when I’m talking about something that is simply my lived experience, versus something that I have clinical experience with or those research where there’s a consensus of opinion. And where I find it difficult is people who generalize from their very small lived experience and think they know everything.
Lucinda Rose: Yeah, very gatekeeping, very one true way of them’s, as we say, in on kinktok and, and it’s a shame because a lot of the time these people are very loud and very confident. And to somebody who doesn’t have the lived experience and is maybe doing their own sort of research and trying to educate themselves. They might take that as gospel when it’s purely someone else’s experience and opinion based on that experience. It’s not as backed or anything you know, of, of notes other than experience, which is great. It’s great that people have experience and I think it’s great that people are open about their experience, but it doesn’t make it Absolutely the law. And a lot of these people seem to think that it is.
Dr Lori Beth Bisbey: not only that, but people are missing the skills that they need to discern what’s good information? And what is. How do I compare that to my situation? Is that likely to apply to me or not? But they’re also missing, the skills to risk assess, to take responsibility. And so when they’re handed this, they think that’s all they need.
Lucinda Rose: Yes. And there’s something called confirmation bias, which becomes this huge on the internet where so basically, someone I know, you know, this, but for anyone listening, yes, they will have an experience or they will have an opinion. And they will go and find a piece of research or something that backs it up. And then they say, I am right, because of this. And it’s like, yeah, that’s one thing. What about all the other things if you’re really going to come from a place of educating or even if you don’t have any educational qualifications, or background, but you really have to give the whole picture, not just your opinion, otherwise, you’re just preaching,
Dr Lori Beth Bisbey: And oftentimes, the internet makes it very easy to get stuck in that tunnel, because if you watch something through tiktok, a great example, if I watch something through for information like I might not agree with it, but I’m watching it for information because it’s something I need to take into account. Suddenly, I have 150 videos on my for you page that are all the same opinion. Yeah, and seeking out other opinions is very difficult. So not only is there confirmation bias, but you end up with a very skewed view as to how much of the population actually thinks like you.
Lucinda Rose: Yes, and I think the internet is very much like that. I mean, the first time I came across kinktok by accident, I never intended to make content, I was in lockdown, and downloaded Tik Tok. And at the end of the day, What’s difficult is tiktok isn’t an educational platform. It’s not a political platform. It’s a social media platform. But it is great for finding out information and education and political stances, and all this kind of stuff. But it’s not necessarily set up that way. So when I got embroiled in my first sort of kinktok drama, it really did feel like that was the entire universe, because that’s all I was seeing. Because that tiny little bubble that is my algorithm was completely that but the minute I stepped out of that bubble and spoke, you know, spoke to real life, people who aren’t on tiktok spoke to people who might be on tiktok, but don’t know anything about that drum it like it’s everything to you at that moment. But you set one foot out of that, and it’s like, that doesn’t exist. It’s so intense. But yeah, the algorithm will just keep you in the same place, unless you personally tried to step out of that. And I think, for some people, because there are so many people on Tiktok, who are so confident that they are very preachy. People do mistake, confidence for, you know, actually knowing what they’re talking about. And so they’re like, oh, no, but so they stay in their bubble, because they don’t think they need to step out of it. So yeah, it can be really tricky. It’s a double-edged sword, because it’s a brilliant platform. It’s fantastic. But it’s hugely problematic.
Dr Lori Beth Bisbey: I also think that even if you’re, you’re listening to somebody who knows their stuff, like I know, my stuff. Still, you should be researching other opinions. Like there are going to be other opinions in mind as well. And I don’t expect to have the only opinion. And I don’t think my opinion is the only one that’s valid. I may have a more robust set of opinions because of how I gather my information. But there are going to be other people who disagree with me who I have respect for whose opinions are just as valid. Yeah, because this isn’t black and white stuff. This is all about the grey. Yeah. it really is. I mean, it’s all about being able to understand ambivalence and, and being able to work with that and being able to discern Well, what’s going to work for me now? What do I need to learn? I remember one of the things I got embroiled in early on, was a person is going to remain nameless because I don’t think it was this person’s fault that this happened. We started with the thing with somebody who was 21 years old, just making pronouncements about leather. I’ve been in Power Exchange relationships for 40 years and have been an active community member for 15. And did things privately prior to that, so that kind of gives you a context.
And this person was making pronouncements. And there was wrong information, patently wrong information, someone’s history that was being misinterpreted. And I was able to say, go read these books, or better yet, go seek out these people because they’re willing to talk to you like Race Bannon will talk to people that like, he’s totally cool. That way, he will talk to you so like there are people around, yeah, that will, in fact, engage you. If you write to them. And you say, I have a question. I see people saying this, this, this and this, you know, around back then, can you please help me resolve this question, then we’ll speak with you. So there’s plenty of people out there you can talk to, have been around for 40 years. 50 years, right? There are people older than me, which I’m always pleased with. But I say I mean, I’ve suggested a couple of books to look at some history. But then some stuff was said. And I was like, you know, I really disagree with that way of going about it. I disagree with that interpretation. And you’re talking about how to run a relationship with respect to 21 years old? Yeah. Yeah. So when you talk you shouldn’t be. I mean, I said this privately, you shouldn’t be speaking in such strong. One true way, like pronouncements I said, because you’re 21 years old. And there were some things said about their particular niche community that I happen to be a part of, they didn’t realize I was. And I was like, I’ve been in that community for 15 years, you were a child when I entered that community. And your viewpoint is the viewpoint of your mentor, who I happen to know. And that’s fine. It’s a valid viewpoint that you’re presenting elect as this being the way to run a relationship, and you have no business telling anyone how to run a relationship till you have some of your own.
Lucinda Rose: Exactly. It’s the opinion is opinion, and facts are facts. And they’re not the same thing. And I think that’s where you really were a lot of people. I think once you’ve been on a social media platform, it took me a little while to get it, because it’s very different to being in real life community, it’s very different to give it a shot. It’s very different. But you do I mean, I mess up all the time. Because what started is I didn’t even mean to educate. It’s just I saw so much misinformation. And I was like, Well, let me just correct, yes. And let me give you some of the science behind this. And let me give you some of the history behind this. And so, you know, I got called an educator. And, and now it’s kind of an amalgamation of that, and my life, and just, it’s just sort of become my daily life. So you know, like, the other day, well, a couple of weeks ago, I made a video and I wasn’t thinking about it. And you know, I got I got pulled up on it. And it’s like, I think you I basically I was speaking from a British perspective. And some Americans saw it. And they were like, well, that doesn’t happen. And I’m like, No, it does happen. And it was just that you forget that social media is global. So sometimes you can be speaking about something from your community or your perspective. And someone else from a completely different walk of life is going to be viewing it. And they’re like, well, that’s not true. So it’s just being really mindful of that when you when you make content about stating, This is my opinion.
Dr Lori Beth Bisbey: This is my context. That’s context. That’s content. And that’s one issue and then nuances, the other. Well, in this particular situation, I got crucified, because it was like, just because someone’s young, doesn’t mean they don’t know. With the greatest of fucking respect, you cannot pronounce about good relationships when you’ve only had one relationship.
Lucinda Rose: Yeah, exactly. I don’t give a shit. If you’ve been having relationships since you were 15.
Dr Lori Beth Bisbey: I am not saying a 60-year-old inherently will do a better job at relationships just because they’re 60. No. But a 60-year-old has a larger sample. Yeah. And so if they’re talking about if they’re talking from experience, they’re talking about a variety of different ones. And if they’ve done any analysis that can explain what worked well and what didn’t work well. You cannot be making pronouncements in your early 20s about the best way to run relationships because you don’t have the life experience. Yeah. And so it’s this thing that was like, well, just because you’re older doesn’t mean you know what I said. First of all, I didn’t say just because I’m older doesn’t that means that I know, actually, I know because bla bla bla bla bla, that’s why I know. But my age is a factor, because I’ve had more than one relationship, because I’ve been having these types of relationships for 40 years, actually, more than 40 years, 42 years. I’ve been doing this for 42 years, and I’ve fucked up royally. And I talk about it regularly. And so I talk about what I learned from experience, what I’ve learned from my clients’ experiences, all of that sort of thing. And with you, you having the hubris to think that actually at 21 you’re the person to educate people on the on an Ms dynamic. What do you know that generalises at 21?
Lucinda Rose: I think a lot of that comes with self-knowledge as well. Like, the biggest advice I can give anybody because I, I kind of became this protector. The first year that I was on kinktok and kinkstagram, we did this charity summer thing called the coffee wars. And we created us and I chose tea milk, which was just because other beverages have been taken if I’m really honest. But it became the place for newbies, it became a place for people who were familiar with vanilla and curious, it became the place where people who didn’t feel like they fitted in with because on kinktok the one thing that is really disproportionate to real life kink is this whole brat versus. And that doesn’t happen in the real world. And so a lot of people just were like, Well, I’ve been in I’m into kink. I’m curious, but I don’t think I’m a brat. And I don’t. So everybody’s kind of came to tea milk. And I became this person who was like the protector of the newbies. And so I get a lot of people asking me questions like what, you know, what’s your best piece of advice to somebody who’s new? And it’s like, oh, the big question. The question that I get asked most is, how do I find a dominant? Like, find yourself? Find yourself first? Find out what you want, what you don’t want, find out who you are, only then do you really have the tools to go and find a dom. I’m not gonna fix your life for you. They can’t know what’s wrong or what you need.
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